Julie Gould 00:01
Hello and welcome to Working scientist, a Nature Careers podcast. I’m Julie Gould.
This is the second episode of our career planning series. Each episode concludes with the sponsored slot from the International Science Council, with support of the China Association for Science and Technology.
The ISC is exploring how early and mid-career researchers can navigate their careers in a constantly evolving scientific landscape through conversations with emerging and established scientists.
In the first episode of this series, we heard from career coaches and guidance practitioners what career planning is.
It is taking a strategic view of your career experiences, learning from them, and using those learnings to help you manage those future career steps.
In this second episode, we’ll look into a couple of tools that you can use to get started with your own career planning.
They will help you assess your current skill and value set, as well as help you find your way to set goals so you can move forward with intent.
After this, don’t forget to stick around until the end of the episode, when we’ll hear from the International Science Council again.
Julie Gould 01:11
Uschi Symmons was a molecular biology postdoc at the University of Pennsylvania in Philadelphia, in the US when we first connected in 2017. And she was set on building a career in academia.
Uschi Symmons 01:23
I had a great postdoc mentor, Arjun Raj, who really took career support very seriously. So we’d have regular meetings to make sure that everything was headed in the right direction, not just scientifically, but really overall.
Julie Gould 01:38
Her supervisor encouraged her to attend career development workshops where she learned about individual development plans, or IDPs.
Uschi Symmons 01:46
I remember sitting in the workshop and being like mindblown. I had no idea these tools existed.
So the workshop was sort of an eye opener for me, in the sense that here was a really sort of comprehensive tool that was also kind of agnostic to what you wanted to do.
It would work if you were interested in pursuing a scientific career, and for example, just wanted to figure out what were technical skills you were missing.
But it would also work if you would be interested in an alternative career path, and sort of wanted to map out what steps you’d need to take to get there.
And so after that workshop, I remember going back to Arjun and being like, “Can we try this as a tool for our upcoming meetings?”
And so it’s sort of established itself from my own personal career planning as a postdoc.
Julie Gould 02:44
So before we learn how this impacted Uschi’s career, let’s look at what the IDP or the individual development plan actually is.
Simply put, it’s a set of career development tools combined to assess your skills and interests, and then it can help you outline your career goals…
Uschi Symmons 02:59
…and bridging the two by breaking that down into smaller steps you need to take to get to your career goals, taking or keeping in mind sort of what your skills are and what skills you might be missing to get there.
Julie Gould 03:18
These days, if you’re based at a university or research institution, they will have their own flavour of individual development plan that you can work with.
Uschi Symmons 03:26
Often the starting point is really doing sort of a big survey, really a multi page assessment of what your skills are, and really breaking that down, writing out your goals in these so called SMART goals.
Julie Gould 03:44
We’ve talked about these on the podcast and in the career section of nature before. And Cynthia Fuhrmann, an associate professor at the University of Massachusetts Chan Medical School, and leader and director of the Professional Development Hub, also recommends that researchers use the SMART (or smart principles) to set their goals.
So what does SMART actually stand for? It means to create goals that are specific, measurable, action oriented, realistic and time bound.
And applying these principles will help you gain a bit more control over your career.
Uschi Symmons 04:15
What’s very useful with IDPs is that you can go back and sort of revisit on a regular basis. You know, have you achieved those goals? Are you headed in the right direction? And sort of revisit and set new goals as needed, based on how your career, or thinking about your career, is progressing, or how your career is progressing.
And so I think it’s really good, because it gives you sort of really, sort of a great starting point when you don’t really know where you are yet to just give you that 360 view on “Here’s what I’m good at. Here’s where I want to go.”
And then it’s also, it has this lighter version of, once you have a solid starting point, you can just go and revisit on a regular basis whether or not you’re on track.
Julie Gould: 05:06
Uschi used her IDP regularly during her time in academia.
Uschi Symmpons 05:09
They gave me a pretty solid understanding of what I was good at and what I enjoyed, also mapping out areas where maybe I wasn’t so strong. And not surprisingly, that wasn’t necessarily aligned with my main interest.
Julie Gould 05:24
Ultimately, though, Uschi moved away from research positions. Her first role outside of academia was as a research coordinator in Germany.
She took the role because Uschi and her husband were looking for jobs in the same place, and the position in Germany was perfect, as her husband had been offered a job in the same location. So she took it.
Uschi Symmons 05:41
But when I got the opportunity to move to Germany as a scientific coordinator, what was great is that having worked with IDPs, I was I sort of already knew that a lot of the skills that I would need, I was quite comfortable with.
So I think it’s a little bit of both. It gives you a good basis to start off with, and it prepares you for the unexpected, so to speak.
Julie Gould 06:05
Now Uschi is a programme manager for health and biotechnology at the European Innovation Council, the EU funding agency for breakthrough innovation, where she is responsible for the strategic coherence of their portfolio in the health and biotechnology area.
Uschi Symmons 06:21
So within the course of a week, I might sit in a meeting with some scientists who are, you know, showing actual data.
And at the same time, really, you know, think of that 50,000 foot level about what is the next wave of innovation and new technologies, and what do we have to do to really engage with that.
And so I think having that, those different breadths, and also capturing a lot of different technologies in biotechnology and health, is something where I think inadvertently, a lot of my career planning has sort of been working towards a position like this without even really knowing.
Julie Gould 07:03
What Uschi stressed to me was that even though IDPs can be incredibly useful for evaluating your skill set and setting goals, it doesn’t take into account your own personal life and values, which often, as with Ushi and her husband, have a big part to play in career moves.
Uschi Symmons 07:19
I have a family, and so for me, it’s really important that my career really works in that context of my family.
And I think it’s also something that’s maybe a shortcoming of IDPs, that it doesn’t necessarily capture some of these very personal things that go into career planning.
So again, I think in addition to sort of the intentional part, there’s also having a really robust network of mentors and peer support, and, for example, not just my own personal choices, but also being able to discuss with people who reflect maybe some of these different aspects of my background and my personality, and being able to discuss with them is critical for for that sort of career planning outside of the career planning tools.
Julie Gould 08:11
Some people prefer to work with career coaches rather than on their own, and career coaches can offer immediate feedback on what you’re saying and can guide you through different thought processes, says Sarah Blackford, an independent academic careers coach specializing in the biosciences field.
Sarah Blackford 08:27
The career coaching, career guidance, you know, profession is very much about empowering people to make their own decisions by, you know, they know themselves the best, so you act as a kind of mirror to them.
But within the field, you have specialist information.
So I may know about some jobs that would be of interest to them. I may know of some resources and links and people, so then I can help them with that as a specific sort of action plan for them to go forward.
Julie Gould 08:57
Sarah works for early career researchers in two different ways. The first one is via one-on-one sessions, which can be quite intense. Some people come with specific goals for the session, Sarah said, but others don’t…
Sarah Blackford 09:09
…in which case I would say something like, “What’s on your mind? Tell me something about what you’re doing at the moment?”
So I try to kick start things, and they start talking, and I use my career coaching, my career guidance skills, things like getting people to reflect by asking them open questions, by summarizing, by reflecting back to them, by maybe even challenging them, and then bringing them to the end, where you know they were going to make an action plan.
And in that process, you may give them a bit of information. You may be able to give them some advice.
Julie Gould 09:49
If Sarah is running a workshop, which is more common than a one-to-one session, she starts with the DOTS model, which we talked about in the first episode of this series, and with self awareness.
Sarah Blackford 10:00
Yes, because I think that underpins everything. So people can work in groups, and they can exchange ideas. And I’ve had feedback to say that that was one of the things they like most about the session.
And people do group guidance as well, because when you learn from each other and you hear about what each other are doing, it can be really powerful.
And then we put in things like, you know, the networking, the planned happenstance kind of activities, and, you know, bring it all together, perhaps to create and get feedback on CVs, and the more practical elements of how to job hunt, how to find the jobs you want.
Because until you know what you want to do, you know you don’t know where, you know you can’t make a plan to go forward, to look in particular places for jobs and to generate ideas.
But of course, in doing that, as with your experiments, in doing those planned activities, you may come across some unexpected results which may be of more interest, and you end up in a different place that is better than where you were planning to go yourself.
Julie Gould 11:05
Boston-based Lauren Celano from Propel Careers is a recruitment consultant and career guidance practitioner. And when she works with individuals on career planning, the first thing she gets them to look at is what they enjoy or not about their current situation.
Lauren Celano 11:19
It could be your actual work. And by work I also mean PhD activities, postdoc activities, you know, things occupying your time. But it could also be things outside of your work, or day job.
Maybe you volunteer with certain organizations. So you can think about it holistically, to be able to start to reflect on what do you enjoy?
Because then if people come to me and say, “Well, actually, Lauren, I really love communicating information as I think about it. I love presenting to people that are scientific, and people that are not scientific.”
Well, fantastic. Now you kind of have a start of where you might want to look for careers. Maybe you focus more communications-oriented. But, I mean, that’s a whole broad area also. But the self-reflection helps to inform the career planning
Julie Gould 12:04
I asked Lauren about the importance of considering your values as well as your skills, something that the IDPs we mentioned earlier didn’t quite cover.
She told me that sometimes when people come to her for career planning guidance, they might have already found a job title that they like, but they hadn’t considered whether or not the role fitted with their personal values.
Lauren Celano 12:23
Some people really value, like, impacting human health. They value being more translational in terms of their activities, in the sense of, like tomorrow, being able to impact humans with a clinical trial or with a drug that’s being commercialized.
So if that’s something that you value, joining a 10-person early-stage biotech where maybe seven years from now, you might have something in the clinic that might not feel as fulfilling to you because you want to have more of an immediate impact.
That’s a pretty specific example, but it is important to think about how your values align to your future career opportunities and. But I feel like most people don’t reflect enough on that.
They reflect on a certain I should be a medical writer. Okay, but make sure you’re doing it in the right type of environment, in place, so that way you’re fulfilled holistically.
Julie Gould 13:17
And what about values like, you know, finance, money?
You know. so, like, you really want to or it’s really important to you to have a job that pays you well, so that, you know, you can’t just pay the bills, but you can save up for Plan ABC when it comes to a house or whatever.
And do you ask people to say, like, “Well, what’s more important is it more important is it more important for you to have a job that fulfills your financial goals. Or is it more important for you to fulfill your your dreams of impacting the world?”
And they might not always be aligned.
Lauren Celano 13:53
There’s a lot of ways to think about this. And I mean, I’ve encountered in my recruiting work and my career coaching work, I’ve encountered thousands of people that have kind of gone through this type of analysis.
Okay, so for people, one thing you should do, as you’re thinking about your plan, you should also start to put together, like, what do you need from a financial standpoint, right?
Like, how much money do you need to live? Maybe you have childcare, maybe you have other things. You like to travel, whatever it might be.
What’s your budget? Because if you want to make a whole bunch of money, you could certainly do investment banking or other finance roles, and those are typically more well paid than other types of opportunities.
But maybe you don’t need, you know, hundreds of thousands of dollars a year.
Maybe you’re fine with something a little more modest, where you can find an environment that’s an even closer fit in terms of where you are, like when I talk with people, when it comes down to offer discussions, if people have multiple offers and trying to figure out which one’s the right fit, I really try to get people to think about, it’s not just the, let’s say, base salary number, the benefits, the flexibility of time, the culture, the mentorship, the development you might get in the organization. These are all super important in terms of your career and how you’ll develop over time.
But I’ve seen people sometimes take the job that pays the most, and then they’re not happy because the culture is not great or the lifestyle is really rough, you’re travelling all the time. I mean, these things are important as people think about just what’s important to them to make sure that they’re going to be fulfilled in what they do.
Julie Gould 15:36
If thinking about values and doing self-reflection feels too daunting and hard, then it might be worth starting at the other end of the process by looking at jobs and job descriptions instead, suggests organizational psychology professor Julia Yates from City St George’s University in London in the UK.
As we heard in episode one of this series, Julia has come up with what she’s called the real-world model of career decision making, a career planning method that she found while speaking with UK-based recent graduates who were working in the UK.
You can listen back to episode one to find out more about what the research was. But ultimately, she found that people broadly used the same five steps when working through career planning, and it starts with looking at jobs.
I asked Julia to tell us how this real world decision-making process works in practice, and how you listeners might be able to use it
Julia Yates 16:25
In practice, it’s not as neat as I’m going to make it sound.
In practice it’s a lot messier. It’s very iterative. So people are going back and forth between the different steps. People often will have more than one sort of cycle going on at any one time.
Sometimes they move back and forward. They’re, you know, thinking about different things all at the same time. So I’ll talk through the steps as though they’re, you know, linear, just to make it easier to communicate.
But in practice, you know, people’s lives are a little bit messier than that.
Julie Gould 16:55
Okay. Caveat out of the way, step one of this iterative, cyclical way to do career planning is to start by looking at a job that sounds okay.
Julia Yates 17:05
And they got their job from all sorts of different sources. So, you know, some of them had seen it on something they watched on telly.
Some of them had done some work experience at school, and really enjoyed it. For some it was, you know, something their dad told them they ought to do, or somebody they met at a party, but it was just a job that sounded okay. So that’s step number one.
The second thing they did is having thought, “Okay, this sounds broadly interesting,” they found out a little bit more about it, and they did that in three different ways.
So first of all, they did a little bit of research on the internet, so just trawled around to see what they could find out about it. Secondly, they tried to talk to people, so somebody that they knew who was doing the job, maybe a careers advisor at school or at university, or wherever they were working.
And the third thing they did is they tried it out. So they did a little bit of work experience or a bit of work shadowing. And often people did all three of those, and I, I guess they just thought, as they were finding out more each step of the way, they were thinking, “Do I still like this, or don’t I?”
So the third step is think about whether it would suit you. But actually that kind of happens the whole way along. So as soon as they found out a little bit more about it, they would think, “Do I like it? Do I like it enough to want to know more or not? “
The graduates I spoke to thought about a lot of different things. They thought about whether it would fit with their lifestyle. They thought about whether they’d enjoy it. They thought about how competitive it would be, how difficult it would be for them to get the job, and whether that would be worth it for them.
They thought a bit about the environment, the context in which they were working, and they thought about their values, about whether it was something that would give them a kind of purpose, that they wanted, that they would feel kind of fulfilled working there.
Julie Gould 18:53
If you’ve gotten to this point and you’ve decided “Yes, actually, this job does sound okay, I’ve done the research and it would suit me,” then you can try step four, which is apply for the job.
Julia Yates 19:04
So one thing that’s really interesting about this model is that the graduates I spoke to generally applied before they decided. The normal wisdom would be, you decide and then you apply.
But with this model, they were applying and then deciding. And they were using the application process as a way to find out more.
So in a way that’s just an extension of the second stage of learning more about it.
Some of them, it was fairly clear after the application, that it would suit them. In which case they would stick with it. For some, during the process of application, they found out more about it and decided it wouldn’t, in which case, back to the start, pick another job.
Some of them even weren’t sure after the application about whether they wanted to do the job. And sometimes they would take the job even if they haven’t decided they wanted it, but just because nothing else was coming up and they thought being in a job was a better thing than not being in a job.
So they would even start the job and then it would only be some months down the line that they would actually make the choice about whether they wanted to stick with this field or not.
Julie Gould 20:07
This model allows you to go back-and-forth between steps and that you could consider multiple jobs at the same time.
Julia Yates 20:14
Generally, it was one job at a time, and if they got to the end and decided it wouldn’t suit, they go right back to the start.
But sometimes another job would kind of appear halfway through, and they’d be thinking about two different jobs at the same time, you know, perhaps at different stages of the process. So quite messy, but broadly speaking, that was the the same trajectory that everybody followed.
Julie Gould 20:35
What this really does is show the importance of the job interview from the perspective of the applicant. It’s an opportunity for the applicant to interview the employer and really find out more about the company and their working environment and whether or not it suits them.
Julia Yates 20:50
It’s only during the application process that you really get a chance to see what the job would be like. You know, that’s your opportunity to meet the people you would actually be working with, and to see the office where you’d actually be based, and have a real in depth conversation about what strengths they’d be looking for, and to think whether or not it would genuinely suit you.
And actually, I think that’s an aspect that’s almost entirely ignored when people think about the interview process. People think about it as assuming, I guess, that the candidates have already decided, but actually they haven’t.
So I think employers are really missing a trick if they if they see the interview process as simply a way to select the best candidate. It’s also absolutely a way to prove to the potential candidates that they are the best employer.
Julie Gould 21:41
But whatever method you use, not all aspects of careers are controllable, however well you might plan them. And Ushi Symmons wants people to keep this in mind.
Uschi Symmons 21:50
A lot of a successful career just depends on getting the right support, getting people to take chances. And I think it’s important to sort of understand that you have to strike that balance, and understanding that not all the weight of a successful career sits with the individual.
Some of it is also sort of distributed in the overall environment of how science scientific careers are designed today, and what opportunities exist out there. And I think that is sort of, understanding that is really useful for sort of peace of mind.
Julie Gould 22:30
There are people who find that planning their career in a detailed way and following the steps with laser focus brings them peace of mind.
And in the next episode of this series, we’ll hear from someone who has planned their career and worked very hard to follow every step to where they are today. But before you go, here’s our sponsored slot from the International Science Council on career development for early and mid career researchers in an ever evolving scientific landscape.
Thanks for listening. I’m Julie Gould.
Izzie Clarke 23:06
Hello and welcome to this podcast series on the changing scientific landscape for early and mid-career researchers, which is presented in partnership with the International Science Council, with the support of the China Association for Science and Technology.
I’m science journalist Izzie Clarke, and this episode focuses on the importance of careers within science policy, diplomacy and advice, and the key skills required by early- to mid-career researchers interested in working in these fields.
Today, I’m joined by Professor Zakri Hamid, Director of the International Institute of Science Diplomacy and Sustainability at UCSI University in Kuala Lumpur, former Science Advisor to the Prime Minister of Malaysia and Fellow of the International Science Council.
Zakri Hamid 23:55
Hi Izzie.
Izzie Clarke 23:56
And María Estelí Jarquín, currently part of the governing board of the International Science Council, and also an international relations manager at the UK Centre for Ecology and Hydrology in Oxfordshire.
María Estelí Jarquín 24:07
Hello, Izzie. Hello, Professor Zakri. Thank you for this invitation.
Izzie Clarke 24:12
Thank you both very much. Now, I’m very excited to be speaking with you. I mean, hugely important roles that you’ve both got. So, María, can we start with you? Why are science policy, diplomacy and advisory roles so important in today’s world?
María Estelí Jarquín 24:27
That’s a very interesting question, Izzie. So, we’re living in a time in history where we need bridge builders more than ever. So, people, ideas, that can connect across divides, foster dialogue, reconcile opposing parties and groups to come together and find long-term solutions. And throughout my career, I have been really marvelled by what science can do – ease tensions, help navigate difficult circumstances.
And this is the exact role of science policy, science diplomacy and advisory roles. They are really crucial because they see that this intersection of knowledge and action and science has this ability to transcend borders, to unite countries to work together that perhaps in other contexts they wouldn’t. Science advisers, science diplomats, they aren’t just solving today’s problems. They’re laying the foundations of those bridges where future generations in a hundred, in two hundred years from now will walk on.
Izzie Clarke 25:29
Zakri, you’ve advised at some of the highest levels in Malaysia. So, what does being a science adviser actually involve and what impact can it have?
Zakri Hamid 25:40
Let me relate to you one instruction from the Prime Minister. When I first met him, he said, “I know you are a scientist and I’m a politician. I’m not really particular with the kind of science advice that you would give me, but I need you to give me two things.”
He said, one, “Can the science advice translate into a better income for our people?” Meaning, can we use science to alleviate poverty? And the second one, he said, “Can that science advice translate into jobs?” These are very simple instruction but is very challenging. So, this is the importance, the relevance, of science today. And how I do it, of course, there were many levels from working with the respective ministries involved in science or interacting with our colleagues overseas.
Izzie Clarke 26:51
Absolutely, and I think that’s… the beauty of science is that it’s so powerful for problem solving. But we also need those people living those experiences to impart that in their research, as well.
María, you’ve built your career on connecting science with policy. So, what drew you to this path and what challenges did you face early on?
María Estelí Jarquín 27:15
After my uni years, I was hired to join different consultancy teams to advise Latin American government in different topics. I was always asking myself why those consultancy teams existed as opposed to consult the great research that was happening. So, I started to look at Master’s programmes where I could learn more about that intersection between science and policy, and it was the beginning of everything in this career for me.
Challenges. Well, coming from Latin America, I come from a middle-income country. I could see very early on that I would not necessarily have a voice in a table. First challenge, perhaps our science adviser structures aren’t as formal as other countries, so how to create that cultural awareness of the importance of those structures. But also how to have a voice in a world where probably my region was underrepresented in the great discussions around science diplomacy.
Izzie Clarke 28:14
How did you navigate that and how have you navigated other practical barriers, whether that’s gender, discipline or geography, that might help others in a similar position?
María Estelí Jarquín 28:28
I think I have been impacted by all of those practical barriers that you mentioned – gender, discipline, geography and, very importantly, age. So, my advice there on how to navigate would be, first of all, prepare yourself, study. Really arrive to a meeting or to a conference or to a multilateral meeting well prepared on the topic, well prepared on who is going to attend as well.
Second, have mentors to help you navigate those scenarios. Mentors that probably are ahead of you in your career that can share their lessons about life.
Third and final – be humble. When I started working in collaboration or building bridges between the scientific institutions and the ministries of foreign affairs in Latin America – two very separate worlds – I remember I arrived to the foreign office in Costa Rica and I said to them, “Hello, I come here for you to teach me everything that you think I need to learn from you.” I developed trust in them. And how do you do that? By being humble, by being open to learn new things together with your colleagues and with your partners in a multilateral negotiation or a bilateral discussion, as well.
Izzie Clarke 29:45
I think that’s an interesting point because I think sometimes people can go into scenarios and almost feel intimidated, scared to admit that they might not know something that they want to learn about it. I guess it’s a level of vulnerability as well to say teach me, help me.
Zakri, can we look at your career for a moment? What have been some of those key moments or choices that helped shape your interdisciplinary, policy-focused career?
Zakri Hamid 30:15
Another interesting question. When I obtained my PhD, my intent was to go back and teach at the university. The change was when I was invited to be a science or technical adviser to the Malaysian government delegation negotiating the UN Convention on Biological Diversity, and this was in 1990. At the end of the first day of the negotiation, I plucked enough courage to talk to the head of delegation who was an ambassador.
So, I told her, Madam Ambassador, I think I want to go home. And she said, why? I said, I’m not really familiar or comfortable with the running of the meeting. This delegation from the UN member states, from 200 countries, would meet in plenary for half an hour and then they would adjourn. They would adjourn to the delegates’ lounge for two and a half hours, drinking coffee or whatever.
So, I told her, I don’t think I can fit in. Then the Ambassador told me, Professor, why don’t you give yourself a few more days? She was amused but also quite upset. That was nearly 40 years ago. I never looked back. You know why? Because it was in the delegates’ lounge where things were a agreed upon.
Izzie Clarke 31:49
And I think that leads us on really well to the points of talking about skills. To have that negotiating power and to face those conversations, what would you say are the valuable skills for working in science policy and how can researchers begin to develop them?
Zakri Hamid 32:10
First, you must be a good listener. Secondly, you must also appreciate the position of your adversary. Third, you must be tolerant in the sense some people talk more than they should. Fourth, you must have the knowledge.
So, as a scientist, of course you have the knowledge. But you should also be very careful that the science advice that we give must be relevant to the issue. Finally, I think, whatever policy that we give should not be policy prescriptive. It should be policy relevant.
María Estelí Jarquín 32:55
And I completely subscribe to everything that Zakri said. And I would add just two soft skills. The first one – the skill of storytelling. And this will help scientists and early-career researchers to actually share their science better. Second essential skill – networking. And this is learning how to identify the right events, the right people to talk to to help grow your career and then build common ground, build trust with those people in order to, A, learn from them or, two, advise them.
Izzie Clarke 33:30
So, to you both, where do you see the greatest opportunity for early- to mid-career researchers to contribute meaningfully to global or to national policy conversations?
Zakri Hamid 33:43
First starting point is to do it at your local or national levels to be involved with the ministries. You mentioned about the foreign ministry – that’s one of course. But in science, there are many more. Ministry of science, technology and innovation, ministry of trade. You need to be engaged.
To do that is possibly to offer your services to those committees that are being set up. The other one is to bring along your scientific friends. We will notice sometime, not all the time, the scientists are very comfortable in their ivory tower. If you are an academic, you publish papers, you want to get promoted to a professor or whatever. Those are fine.
But there is another element that should also involve the academic. And that is to examine whether your research results are relevant to the nation, are relevant to the region. So, if that relevance is not there, I will tell you that you have a lot of room to grow.
Izzie Clarke 34:55
And María?
María Estelí Jarquín 34: 56
I would like to address a message to all those early- to mid-career researchers from lower- and middle-income countries that might be listening to us. Be brave about coming to this national policy or global conversations because I am certain that you’re going to diversify the discussion, because you’re going to bring new perspectives. Perhaps you’re going to bring new methodologies.
How valuable it is to have on the table someone that can say how things work in Southeast Asia, in Africa or in Latin America. To talk about equitable partnerships when you work in science, especially to bring a voice for all of those that have been underrepresented in science, but also in policy discussions at the multilateral level.
Izzie Clarke 35:42
Thank you both for joining me today.
If you’re an early- or mid-career researcher and you want to be part of a global community, then join the International Science Council forum for emerging scientists.
Visit the website council.science/forum. I’m Izzie Clarke, and next time we’ll be exploring the impact of AI and digitalization on scientific careers. Until then.
